‘Gaze Back’ of lilyma 马莉(Part 2)

《回眸》第一集lilyma马莉（下）

‘Gaze Back’ of lilyma 马莉(Part 2)

导演/主持人Director/Host:：陈世海 Chen Shihai

嘉宾 Guests：lilyma马莉、吕新 Lvxin

摄像 Cameraman：陈恩及 Chen Enji、许臣斌 Sandy Xu

后期 Edit/ DIT：陈恩及 Chen Enji

Part 1

Chen Shihai: These past couple of days in Paris have been overcast and drizzly; the pink hues make it a bit more bearable. It's always like this – while creating something dazzling, it also reveals an underlying, helpless sorrow.

Chen Shihai: I've had a few drinks with Ma Li. Every time we drink, I always end up saying, "Drink a little less, drink a little less." She's someone who can fully express herself under the influence of alcohol. She says wine is her spiritual companion. I think wine is probably a very important friend in her life.

Chen Shihai: When you raise your glass and take a sip of wine, your eyes—your entire expression—just lights up instantly.

lilyma: Yes. My earliest memory of alcohol goes back to when my parents were going out to work, back when we were in the countryside in Yixing, when I was 3 or 4 years old. We ran a little shop back then. There was this sparkling wine, about three percent alcohol. My mom gave me a bottle, hoping to put me to sleep! But then, as they were walking off, they turned around and saw me following right behind them.

Chen Shihai: A sleeping potion! They gave you a sleeping potion!

lilyma: Pretty much. But my mom could hold her liquor, most;y rice wine she made. She do well. So she didn't really think much of it. My next memory is from Changzhou, where everyone drank rice wine, out of bowls. Even us kids drank. There was a separate table for the children; after a few bowls, we'd be giggling and stumbling around. I remember drinking half a jin of baijiu once, and then in the afternoon, I was doing flips and practicing martial arts, tumbling exercises. That was when I realized I had a decent tolerance for alcohol. But I didn't drink much usually, because I needed to protect my voice.

lilyma: When I was at Beijing Film Academy, my classmates and I would often go to a quiet bar—a familiar spot. None of those bars exist anymore. Foreign students, classmates, we'd all get together, order a Gin and Tonic, and sip it slowly. Long Island Iced Tea is the kind of drink that hits you hard. When I was with the girls, I'd drink Cosmopolitans, and then we'd go dancing. Sometimes, to get into the dancing mood quickly—I really love dancing—we'd start with four shots of Tequila, clinking glasses. That kind of ritual, it's pure youth, that spirit of bold collision. But after I turned thirty, I stopped drinking those.

Chen Shihai: That's the kind of thing you do when you're young and carefree.

lilyma: Yes, yes, the bars, the dancing—it was all about hanging out with classmates. We were in a small group; it was really just a way for us to connect with each other. We'd talk about our creative projects, our dreams, the films we wanted to make, discuss the great masters, talk about art—we were so high on it all. It was all dreams, all ideals, those days of youthful vigor. Mm, later on, I stuck to drinking red wine for a long time, because I was writing. So why haven't I been drinking much red wine in recent years? My stomach just can't handle it anymore. Once it goes down, it turns cold. It makes me really uncomfortable.

Chen Shihai: That feeling you have, it's not just you. In the 1990s, French wine entered China, then American wines, then the New World and Old World—Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Chile, then Italy, France, Germany—all those wines came pouring into China. Sales skyrocketed, and many people became real wine connoisseurs. But some of them, after drinking for over a decade—I have many friends who drank for ten years or so—well, some are still very dedicated and think red wine is wonderful and keep drinking it because they don't have that kind of reaction. However, there's a portion, and I think the proportion is not small, who find that as they drink red wine over the years, it makes them feel increasingly "cold," and their relationship with their body becomes increasingly delicate.

lilyma: What I remember most clearly is, after my exhibition ended in 2024, I went to Chengdu for the National Day holiday. Right before my flight, I had a bottle of red wine. Normally, one or two bottles wouldn't be a problem. But that one bottle—I was throwing up so badly, I was practically losing my mind. I was dizzy, leaning against the wall just to walk. It literally came out exactly as it went in. It was just too "cold." I think… I think my body had reached its limit. If I get a hangover and can't work the next morning, that whole day is wasted. And if I drink the wrong kind of wine, I can't work for two or three days. But with huangjiu (yellow wine), your huangjiu, I don't have that problem. I can go for a run the next morning.

Chen Shihai: So with wine, eventually your body started reacting—a strong physical reaction.

lilyma: It wasn't just uncomfortable; it was a really intense reaction. It scared me.

Chen Shihai: It made you feel unwell. What about baijiu (white liquor)? Do you drink Chinese baijiu?

lilyma: I don't really drink baijiu. One reason is that, given how I drink, it would get me drunk too quickly. Another reason is I don't like the smell that comes back up from my stomach. It makes me feel uncomfortable just smelling it.

Chen Shihai: What about whisky and brandy? Have you tried those?

lilyma: Whisky, I like. I like single malt, the kind with a bit of a smoky flavor, a stronger taste. Why did I stop drinking that? Because I couldn't control myself. When I'm painting, when I get excited, I just can't stop. And if I can't stop, then the next day I suffer again—another two or three days I can't work. So I don't dare drink it anymore. You're supposed to just have one glass, but I'd end up drinking a whole bottle. Who can handle that?

Chen Shihai: Drinking a whole bottle by yourself—of course you can't handle that.

lilyma: I'd often drink by myself and just dance at home! I'd dance all night long at home.

Chen Shihai: Can you dance now?

lilyma: Huangjiu（Chinese Rice wine）, to me, is very gentle.

Chen Shihai: What do you mean? How would you describe your relationship with it?

lilyma: For one, it tastes like home. And also, I used to have cold hands and feet. But these past couple of years… it's been too hot.

Chen Shihai: It suddenly strikes me that probably 90% of Chinese women have cold hands and feet.

lilyma: My feet—they're just too hot, too hot.

Chen Shihai: What do you mean? I didn't quite get that. You're saying that after drinking huangjiu, your cold hands and feet problem went away? Now they're warm, right? Is it not because you're always touching your little dog, but because of the Huangjiu（Chinese Rice wine）? Do you get any hangover from it?

lilyma: Exactly! My body feels warm. There's no hangover. For me, the next day… I'm almost embarrassed to say it, but I always end up drinking too much. It's so good, it makes me feel like I'm spinning—I can easily drink two bottles.

Chen Shihai: Moderation! But you've got a good tolerance!

lilyma: It's okay. My tolerance is alright. I've never once had huangjiu and been unable to get out of bed the next day.

Chen Shihai: It has to be our huangjiu, right? You can't say that about all huangjiu! What role do you think alcohol plays in your life? What kind of relationship do you have with it?

lilyma: It's a friend to me. It's my time—the time I spend talking to myself! Sometimes I feel like work is too busy, too intense, and I need a drink to relax.

Chen Shihai: Mm, it's a spiritual companion for you.

lilyma: Yes, yes, that's right! For me, you could say that.

Chen Shihai: What about coffee and tea? What's the ratio between those for you?

lilyma: Coffee? Coffee is my Morning Call.

Chen Shihai: Wine, as we said earlier, is your companion, your spiritual companion.

lilyma: Coffee is the Morning Call.

Chen Shihai: It's breakfast. That's your habit.

lilyma: I wake up early and have a cup of black coffee on an empty stomach. Tea… tea is life. Tea is life.

Chen Shihai:I think that's a wonderful summary. Wine is your soul's companion, coffee is the Morning Call, and tea is life. I've been brewing rice wine for ten years. Before that, when I worked in media, I studied food and traveled everywhere to eat. Personally, I think wine is just one kind of food. So, like Carina Lau said, when she was a child in Shanghai, her father would send her out to buy wine during meals. The bulk wine she bought back then was definitely huangjiu. Now she also says that if there's no wine with a meal, it doesn't feel like a proper meal. That actually reflects the ancient Chinese cultural idea that "no feast is complete without wine."

lilyma:In my family, if there's no wine at a meal, it's not a meal. At lunch, we'd have a glass or two, then take a nap.

Chen Shihai:Ah, there's that regional cultural difference. We northerners used to think, "Oh, a young woman, a wife—she shouldn't drink." But in the environment you grew up in, every meal since childhood was accompanied by wine. It's different. It shows the richness of Chinese culture. Fine wine is just one type of fine food. As for coffee, I only drink black coffee, pure coffee. I have this understanding: coffee is "meaty." Tea is "earthy." Of course, this is just my personal feeling. I really enjoy tea. I've been drinking it for decades, almost every day. I drink all kinds of tea. I also study tea—the six major categories of Chinese tea, which ones to settle on, which tea to drink in which season, what vessels to use—I find it quite enjoyable to explore these things in life.

Part 2

lilyma: I want to ask you something—are you from Tianjin? Am I right?

Chen Shihai:A true Northerner, yes, that's my hometown.

lilyma:Right, right. That feeling when you suddenly taste something very authentic, something you ate as a child？

Chen Shihai:I'm from the '60s generation. The '70s were my boyhood years. Back then, frankly speaking, in the North, even in Tianjin, you couldn't eat rice or white flour to your heart's content. Getting a steamed white flour bun was such a joy. To this day, I still vividly remember the sweet aroma of flour.

lilyma:That's how I feel about rice. (I was a premature baby. My mother had no breast milk, so I was raised on rice soup.)

Chen Shihai:So when you drink rice wine, when you drink huangjiu, you can connect with that feeling.

lilyma:Yes, exactly.

Chen Shihai: When we drink rice wine(Huang Jiu), we use specific vessels. In the Shaoxing area, they have a tradition of warming it—because drinking it warm is more nourishing. Of course, it's better to drink it warm. Also, Chinese people generally have a cooler constitution, so drinking something warm makes it more agreeable to the body. However, huangjiu doesn't have to be drunk only warm. Many people misunderstand this—they think you must drink it hot, and that you have to add ginger, preserved plum, or even mix it with a beaten egg. In doing so, people tend to emphasize its functional aspects.

In contrast, when Westerners drink alcohol, they focus more on the drink itself—the physical and emotional responses it evokes, and the sense of comfort it brings to the spirit. When it comes to huangjiu, Chinese people often exaggerate its functional benefits. But it's not just about that—huangjiu has its own color, aroma, taste, body, structure, depth, and character, along with its fragrance. In terms of its functional components, it contains 21 types of amino acids, 18 types of inorganic salts, as well as dextrin, maltose, functional oligosaccharides, and so on.

That's why drinking huangjiu can help alleviate the issue of cold hands and feet. The warmth it brings is different from the heat you get from baijiu. Baijiu, being high in alcohol content, is a strong stimulant. Once it enters the body, it quickly accelerates blood circulation, making you sweat and feel hot. But it's a rapid process, and after it passes, your body may actually feel cold—because all your heat has been released. Huangjiu, however, works differently. It contains a large amount of energy that flows gently and steadily, keeping your body warm for a longer time. That's the sensation it gives—gentle, warming. That's what huangjiu is.

Besides its functional benefits, huangjiu also has the flavor I mentioned earlier. There are now flavor profiles for huangjiu—whether it's the aroma of fermented ingredients, the fragrance of the raw materials, or the flavors produced during the fermentation process. Today, there are hundreds, even thousands, of aroma types present. So it's something you can truly savor.

That's why, as you mentioned earlier, when you drink a cup of huangjiu—especially a high-quality Shaoxing huangjiu like Huadiao or Jiafan—you can enjoy it even when drinking alone, without any food pairing. At that moment, you truly feel like "just one more person and we'd be three drinking together."

Tang Dynasty: Li Bai

Among the flowers, a jug of wine,

I drink alone, no friend of mine.

I raise my cup to invite the moon,

With my shadow, we are three.

lilyma: I really do drink alone, without any food. Ah, speaking of which…

Chen Shihai: Because you don't need food with it. The flavor itself is so rich, there's so much to appreciate. It's not just a drink to accompany a dish or a cuisine. It's the main event.

lilyma: It really is the main event.

Part 3

Lv Xin:I'm （lilyma）Ma Li's bestie. By profession, I'm a screenwriter.

Chen Shihai:What do you think Ma Li is like as a person?

Lv Xin:She's like a sip of wine. When it first hits your mouth, there's one flavor. Then, as it lingers, another flavor emerges. After you swallow it, a different taste comes back up.

Chen Shihai:So it's about the first taste, the savoring…

Lv Xin:Ah! That's exactly it. That's the professional way to put it.

Chen Shihai:The aftertaste.

Lv Xin:Ah, yes, yes, yes! When I first met her, we were collaborating on a project. I had written a novel called Legend Of Heroes , and she was the producer. The feeling I got from her was that she was fearless, brimming with passion. Right away, we had this connection—we shared the same ideals and felt we should have met sooner. Even though she's from the south and I'm from the north, when it came to discussing our work, we reached a consensus very quickly. I believe that when you get to know someone, you don't just listen to what they say; you watch what they do. So back then, I already knew she was a producer with real heart and vision.

Chen Shihai:Mm! An idealist with heart and conviction.

Lv Xin:Yes! There's one quality that's especially rare and truly precious in a person—courage. Many of us talk about courage, but how many actually live it?

Chen Shihai:Mm! When real challenges come, how do you get through those difficult moments?

Lv Xin:I've seen Ma Li face one trial after another. When she's alone, she suffers deeply. But the moment she's in front of all of us, she's bursting with passion again. She leaves all that hardship and pain in her own private space.

Chen Shihai:So, could we put it this way: She gives hope to everyone else, while keeping the resilience of someone who faces death and chooses to live deep within herself?

Lv Xin:I think she's someone who has been honed. Through that process of refinement, I see her as a piece of rough jade. Without that polishing…

Chen Shihai:Heheheh! You're about to cry (Ma Li)…

Lv Xin:Without the process of polishing, you can't become a fine piece or a treasure. So I feel that every step Ma Li took back then was like carving herself with a blade—using difficulties, all kinds of hardships, to sculpt herself.

(Lv Xin wants to comfort Ma Li, but Ma Li brushes her off.)

 Lv Xin: I think without that process, she might not have today's fearlessness in facing so many things, because she's already "died." Yes, when you face death and choose to live. It's about asking yourself: How do you want to live this life? With no regrets. The feeling she gives me is that if she had one year left, one month left, or even just one day left, she would still want to spend it painting. So I believe she truly loves it.

(Ma Li quickly steps out of the frame…)

Chen Shihai:Mm, her inner convictions and principles are very clear. That's rare.

Lv Xin:It really is. So sometimes, I use her to encourage myself, to motivate myself. I feel that someone as brave as her—most people around us are very pragmatic, but what I get from her is this sense of: "What do I want from my life?" That's the kind of depth she has. I think it's had a great impact on me.

Chen Shihai:So the colors in her paintings are extremely vibrant and multi-layered. In that regard, perhaps it's also her understanding of life, expressed through those colors.

Lv Xin:I think she is returning to something. The ups and downs, and then setting out anew. Throughout that whole process, she has experienced so much. To be able to return to nature, to return to the world as it should be, I think that is also very difficult.

(Ma Li quietly sheds tears off-camera…)

Chen Shihai:Deep down, there's also a kind of innocence and purity.

Lv Xin:Well, she is truly someone I've seen who fights tooth and nail to protect that piece of purity in her heart.

Chen Shihai:As her best friend, what advice would you give her?

Lv Xin:Follow her heart and be Free! We've discussed this before—life is only once. We don't know if the way we spend our time is worth it or not. But I believe, if she can stay true to herself, live and choose the way she wants and the way she likes, I will support her with everything I have to let her be herself.

Chen Shihai:You know what? Your answer caught me off guard. I had some expectations beforehand, but what you just said—hoping she can follow her heart—that was not something I anticipated. Honestly, it stirred something inside me.

Lv Xin:Really?

Chen Shihai:I think this is what a true friend looks like—the greatest respect and love.

Lv Xin:Yes!!

Chen Shihai:Lv Xin's answer truly moved me: "Follow her heart and be Free." Who would give a friend such a blessing—saying it's enough for her to just follow her heart? Within that lies blessing, respect, and trust. Ma Li came from Jiangnan in the south to the northern part of the country. I said to her, you're a "north drifter" in Beijing, aren't you? She didn't agree. She said, "Where my heart finds peace, that is my home." I've been in Beijing for over ten years, and my heart is at peace here, so I consider Beijing my home.

Part 4

Chen Shihai:But in Ma Li's heart, there's still a dream—her own utopia. She wants to return to her hometown, to create a "Moli's Garden" by the shores of Lake Tai. She says she imagines it like Monet's Garden. You can see both romance and a longing for a place to belong in her future life. Ma Li has a pure soul and an incredibly strong creative vitality. I truly hope all her dreams come true, and that someday soon we can raise a glass together in her Molly's Garden.

Chen Shihai:Actually, I really love winter in Beijing. Even though today it's minus fifteen or sixteen degrees Celsius, the sunlight is brilliant, the sky is blue, there's no wind—it's crisp and dry. I find it very comfortable. But this dryness… I suppose it's not so friendly to you ladies? Your skin!

lilyma:Not very friendly, no. Especially with the heating indoors—it's just too dry. I still prefer my birthplace, Jiangsu.

Chen Shihai:Yes, you're a woman from the south of the Yangtze River.

lilyma:Yes, that Jiangnan water-town vibe—with good food.

Chen Shihai:Mm, ah, I remember you mentioned something about a "Moli's Garden"? That idea—do you want it to be in your hometown?

lilyma:Hehehe, yes, ideally somewhere by the shores of Lake Tai, with hills and water. Because in the south, flowers bloom all year round. Up here in the north, it's not the same. You need flowers to paint a garden.

Chen Shihai:And then you can go around cutting them.

lilyma:I want to design a big kitchen.

Chen Shihai:Yes, yes, you love food! There has to be a grill.

lilyma:Ah! I've even drawn the grill! Yes, and a library. The key thing is a telescope—an astronomical telescope—so I can look up at the starry sky, watch the clouds, watch the sunset, look out at the lake, right?!

Chen Shihai:With your mysterious garden all around you.

lilyma:Enjoying good food, drinking good wine, chatting and creating with my close friends…

Chen Shihai:Wine is definitely a must for you! That's your spiritual comfort, your companion—the seasoning of life.

lilyma:Seasoning! Yes! Companion! Especially your huangjiu, best Chinese rice wine.

Chen Shihai:Alright, alright.

lilyma:So many good wines—a big wine cellar!

Chen Shihai:Alright, fine, I'll supply it to you.

lilyma:Yes! Everyone can create together, talk about ideas, wellness, life, rest. And painting—the key is the big garden, planted with all kinds of flowers.

Chen Shihai:Could we put it this way: that is your spiritual utopia?

lilyma:It should be my place to land, where my heart can rest.

Chen Shihai:I think, looking back at your journey—at three years old, you wanted to be a painter, and now you are one; at fifteen, you wanted to be a film director, and you've made films too. So it seems your dreams are all achievable ideals. You could say that your ideals will eventually shine into your life.

lilyma:Yes! They've never been daydreams.

Chen Shihai:This calls for a drink. Yes, we should have one.

lilyma:I know, it's so cold—we should have warmed up a pot of wine.

Chen Shihai:Come on, come on.

lilyma:So we're miming it? Acting without props？

Chen Shihai:Cheers! Here's to wishing you success.

lilyma:Alright, I'm sure it will happen. Hehehehehe!